OT:? Fuel that fires; the Treaty of Versailles revisited

[A Moose in Love]

https://spectator.org/after-a-century-of-chaos-totalitarianism-and-war-versailles-treaty-still-haunts-the-world/

A most shameful treaty shoved down the throat of the Germans at bayonet point. Was it really a treaty, or a provocation for a continued war?

Time to draw out the haters and bigots. In other words, the filth.

[Byker]

Post by A Moose in Love
https://spectator.org/after-a-century-of-chaos-totalitarianism-and-war-versailles-treaty-still-haunts-the-world/
A most shameful treaty shoved down the throat of the Germans at bayonet
point. Was it really a treaty, or a provocation for a continued war?
Time to draw out the haters and bigots. In other words, the filth.

WWI didn't HAVE to end that way:

[SolomonW]

Post by Byker

Post by A Moose in Love
https://spectator.org/after-a-century-of-chaos-totalitarianism-and-war-versailles-treaty-still-haunts-the-world/
A most shameful treaty shoved down the throat of the Germans at bayonet
point. Was it really a treaty, or a provocation for a continued war?
Time to draw out the haters and bigots. In other words, the filth.

WWI didn't HAVE to end that way: http://youtu.be/J9lWdkCxXYg

I agree with the video.

In answer to your question, it depends on how you look at it, compared to
the treaty that German put on Russia at Brest-Litovsk it was very mild.



Much of the treaty was later ignored. Now could the framers of the treaty
be blamed for the failure of the allies to uphold the treaty at the
Rhineland?



The problem I think with the treaty was that it was too harsh in theory
and too weak in reality. It would have been better if the agreement had
been stricter in theory and fact or weaker in theory and fact.

[Byker]

Post by SolomonW

Post by Byker
http://youtu.be/J9lWdkCxXYg

I agree with the video.

Prior to the Cuban Missile Crisis, JFK had been reading historian Barbara
Tuchman's "The Guns of August", that traced how the Great Powers,
simultaneously headstrong and yet unsure of themselves, slipped, stumbled,
and miscalculated their way into the Great War in 1914. The President was
particularly haunted by a conversation between two German leaders after the
war had spiraled out of control. One, a former chancellor, asked the current
chancellor, "How did it all happen?" The latter, who led his nation into
war, replied, "Ah, if only one knew."

As the Crisis darkened, Jack told Bobby that he wanted to avoid someone
someday writing a comparable "Missiles of October". As JFK recalled later,
"If this planet is ever ravaged by nuclear war...I do not want one of those
survivors to ask another, 'How did it all happen?' and receive the
incredible reply, 'Ah, if only one knew.'"

[SolomonW]

Post by Byker

Post by SolomonW

Post by Byker
http://youtu.be/J9lWdkCxXYg

I agree with the video.

Prior to the Cuban Missile Crisis, JFK had been reading historian Barbara
Tuchman's "The Guns of August", that traced how the Great Powers,
simultaneously headstrong and yet unsure of themselves, slipped, stumbled,
and miscalculated their way into the Great War in 1914. The President was
particularly haunted by a conversation between two German leaders after the
war had spiraled out of control. One, a former chancellor, asked the current
chancellor, "How did it all happen?" The latter, who led his nation into
war, replied, "Ah, if only one knew."
As the Crisis darkened, Jack told Bobby that he wanted to avoid someone
someday writing a comparable "Missiles of October". As JFK recalled later,
"If this planet is ever ravaged by nuclear war...I do not want one of those
survivors to ask another, 'How did it all happen?' and receive the
incredible reply, 'Ah, if only one knew.'"

This view is no longer widely held of an accidental start of ww1

Checkout a book
https://www.amazon.com/Europes-Last-Summer-Started-Great/dp/037572575X

[Rich Rostrom]

In article

"A Moose in Love" wrote in message

Post by A Moose in Love
A most shameful treaty shoved down the throat of the Germans at bayonet
point.

It's called "losing a war". Start a war (which Germany did), lose the war,
and the winners will decide the terms.

Post by A Moose in Love
Was it really a treaty, or a provocation for a continued war?

Hardly anybody in Germany wanted to fight another war. Some Germans were
offended that Germany was deprived of military power, but it made no
practical difference to the average German.

Hitler rebuilt German military power, which was gratifying, and then
decided to use it. Which was not necessary. Even top commanders like
von Brauchitsch and Halder were sure it would end badly.

[M I Wakefield]

Post by A Moose in Love
https://spectator.org/after-a-century-of-chaos-totalitarianism-and-war-versailles-treaty-still-haunts-the-world/
A most shameful treaty shoved down the throat of the Germans at bayonet
point. Was it really a treaty, or a provocation for a continued war?
Time to draw out the haters and bigots. In other words, the filth.

What should have happened after WW I:

- Allied occupation of Germany, so that everyone got the point that they had
lost;
- Trials for war crimes, with exiles, imprisonments, and executions to
follow;
- Partition of Germany into several independent, demilitarized, states ...
the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian Empires disintegrated, and the German
Empire had been around for less than 50 years.

[Dave Smith]

Post by M I Wakefield

Post by A Moose in Love
https://spectator.org/after-a-century-of-chaos-totalitarianism-and-war-versailles-treaty-still-haunts-the-world/
A most shameful treaty shoved down the throat of the Germans at
bayonet point.  Was it really a treaty, or a provocation for a
continued war?
Time to draw out the haters and bigots.  In other words, the filth.

- Allied occupation of Germany, so that everyone got the point that they
had lost;
- Trials for war crimes, with exiles, imprisonments, and executions to
follow;
- Partition of Germany into several independent, demilitarized, states
... the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian Empires disintegrated, and the
German Empire had been around for less than 50 years.

Poor Moose is still whining about a treaty that was enacted 100 years
ago. It has been pointed out to him more than once that the treaty was
no harsher on the Germans than the one that Germany had imposed on
France at the end of the Franco-Prussian War. Nor was it harsher than
the terms they had forced in Russia when it backed out of the war.

It was also pointed out that Germany was responsible for that war
after having worked out a plan with Austria Hungary to strengthen its
position in The Balkans.

AH was worried that the Russians would intervene in their power grab and
Germany offered to help them out. France was treaty bound to help
defend Russia in case of invasion, so Germany tried to force them to
renege on that promise. Germany then devised a plan to invade France
through neutral Belgium and force them into submission, England was
treaty bound to defend neutral Belgium. After a quick win in France
Germany would then turn on Russia which they figured would not have had
enough time to mobilize its army.

The plan failed when the Germans discovered that some people actually
honour treaties. Germany and AH were definitely the aggressors and bore
responsibility for the millions of deaths and huge costs.

Germany ended up getting out of most of the terms of the treaty. It lost
some of the territory it had previously taken.

Some of this authors claims are BS. He says that it made no pretense of
apply Wilson's 14 points. I guess he was counting on people taking his
claim as gospel without actually considering the points and how they
were applied. He neglected to mention the Zimmerman telegraph that was
an offer of German support if they were to attack the US to regain its
lost territories.

Perhaps the defeat would have been clearer if the Allies had marched
right into Germany and occupied it. That was how they dealt with them in
WWII.

[Dhu on Gate]

Post by Dave Smith

Post by M I Wakefield

Post by A Moose in Love
https://spectator.org/after-a-century-of-chaos-totalitarianism-and-war-versailles-treaty-still-haunts-the-world/
A most shameful treaty shoved down the throat of the Germans at
bayonet point.  Was it really a treaty, or a provocation for a
continued war?
Time to draw out the haters and bigots.  In other words, the filth.

- Allied occupation of Germany, so that everyone got the point that they
had lost;
- Trials for war crimes, with exiles, imprisonments, and executions to
follow;
- Partition of Germany into several independent, demilitarized, states
... the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian Empires disintegrated, and the
German Empire had been around for less than 50 years.

Poor Moose is still whining about a treaty that was enacted 100 years
ago. It has been pointed out to him more than once that the treaty was
no harsher on the Germans than the one that Germany had imposed on
France at the end of the Franco-Prussian War. Nor was it harsher than
the terms they had forced in Russia when it backed out of the war.
It was also pointed out that Germany was responsible for that war
after having worked out a plan with Austria Hungary to strengthen its
position in The Balkans.
AH was worried that the Russians would intervene in their power grab and
Germany offered to help them out. France was treaty bound to help
defend Russia in case of invasion, so Germany tried to force them to
renege on that promise. Germany then devised a plan to invade France
through neutral Belgium and force them into submission, England was
treaty bound to defend neutral Belgium. After a quick win in France
Germany would then turn on Russia which they figured would not have had
enough time to mobilize its army.
The plan failed when the Germans discovered that some people actually
honour treaties. Germany and AH were definitely the aggressors and bore
responsibility for the millions of deaths and huge costs.
Germany ended up getting out of most of the terms of the treaty. It lost
some of the territory it had previously taken.
Some of this authors claims are BS. He says that it made no pretense of
apply Wilson's 14 points. I guess he was counting on people taking his
claim as gospel without actually considering the points and how they
were applied. He neglected to mention the Zimmerman telegraph that was
an offer of German support if they were to attack the US to regain its
lost territories.
Perhaps the defeat would have been clearer if the Allies had marched
right into Germany and occupied it. That was how they dealt with them in
WWII.

This https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_II,_German_Emperor
was the man responsible for WW2. Germany was decapitated in
WW1: their recruiting for the trenches started with the best
and brightest out of the Gymnasiums Bismark had promulgated
(everything Otto built was shite to Willy): 2++ million young
men turned into fertilizer and mud. Britain and France together
only lost that many, and their recruiting was nowhere near so
"consistent". One of Ludwig Wittgenstein's "canards" was that
all the guys who could have stopped the NAZIs died in the next
foxhole over from him so we have Mathematical logic instead.

Dhu

[Dave Smith]

Post by Dave Smith
Perhaps the defeat would have been clearer if the Allies had
marched right into Germany and occupied it. That was how they dealt
with them in WWII.

This https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_II,_German_Emperor was the
man responsible for WW2. Germany was decapitated in WW1: their
recruiting for the trenches started with the best and brightest out
of the Gymnasiums Bismark had promulgated (everything Otto built was
shite to Willy): 2++ million young men turned into fertilizer and
mud. Britain and France together only lost that many, and their
recruiting was nowhere near so "consistent". One of Ludwig
Wittgenstein's "canards" was that all the guys who could have stopped
the NAZIs died in the next foxhole over from him so we have
Mathematical logic instead.

That is an interesting perspective. Moose usually throws in the nonsense
about how the Allies didn't really care about Poland because it ended up
in Soviet hands. He just can't wrap his head around to fact that the by
the time Germany was defeated the Soviet Union had become a very
powerful force and it just wasn't in the cards to the Allies to have a
military confrontation with them. That war led to the Cold War, and
Poland did eventually regain independence.

[A Moose in Love]

Post by Dave Smith

Post by M I Wakefield

Post by A Moose in Love
https://spectator.org/after-a-century-of-chaos-totalitarianism-and-war-versailles-treaty-still-haunts-the-world/
A most shameful treaty shoved down the throat of the Germans at
bayonet point.  Was it really a treaty, or a provocation for a
continued war?
Time to draw out the haters and bigots.  In other words, the filth.

- Allied occupation of Germany, so that everyone got the point that they
had lost;
- Trials for war crimes, with exiles, imprisonments, and executions to
follow;
- Partition of Germany into several independent, demilitarized, states
... the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian Empires disintegrated, and the
German Empire had been around for less than 50 years.

Poor Moose is still whining about a treaty that was enacted 100 years
ago. It has been pointed out to him more than once that the treaty was
no harsher on the Germans than the one that Germany had imposed on
France at the end of the Franco-Prussian War. Nor was it harsher than
the terms they had forced in Russia when it backed out of the war.
It was also pointed out that Germany was responsible for that war
after having worked out a plan with Austria Hungary to strengthen its
position in The Balkans.
AH was worried that the Russians would intervene in their power grab and
Germany offered to help them out. France was treaty bound to help
defend Russia in case of invasion, so Germany tried to force them to
renege on that promise. Germany then devised a plan to invade France
through neutral Belgium and force them into submission, England was
treaty bound to defend neutral Belgium. After a quick win in France
Germany would then turn on Russia which they figured would not have had
enough time to mobilize its army.
The plan failed when the Germans discovered that some people actually
honour treaties. Germany and AH were definitely the aggressors and bore
responsibility for the millions of deaths and huge costs.
Germany ended up getting out of most of the terms of the treaty. It lost
some of the territory it had previously taken.
Some of this authors claims are BS. He says that it made no pretense of
apply Wilson's 14 points. I guess he was counting on people taking his
claim as gospel without actually considering the points and how they
were applied. He neglected to mention the Zimmerman telegraph that was
an offer of German support if they were to attack the US to regain its
lost territories.
Perhaps the defeat would have been clearer if the Allies had marched
right into Germany and occupied it. That was how they dealt with them in
WWII.

Stop whining and own up to the truth. But the truth flies in the face of your belief system, and if you accepted the truth, you would be a person. But now, all you are is a filthy genocidal maniac. Remember that you condoned genocide of innocents because innocent people were raped and murdered for committing the crime of being German. People like you are the worst kind of filth there is. And I'm not whining. I'm just giving you the opportunity to face the truth. And if you can't even roast a duck, what good are you?

[Greg Carr]

Post by A Moose in Love
https://spectator.org/after-a-century-of-chaos-totalitarianism-and-war-versailles-treaty-still-haunts-the-world/
A most shameful treaty shoved down the throat of the Germans at bayonet point. Was it really a treaty, or a provocation for a continued war?
Time to draw out the haters and bigots. In other words, the filth.

Your ancestors were active in the WW1 and started WW2. They killed millions of ppl for being Slavs, Jews, political opponents or captured POWs plus the millions more they slaughtered through the Blitzkrieg until The Hun was defeated in 1945.

The Allies in WW2 demanded the unconditional surrender of Germany and the whimpering, raped Germans ended up capitualing on May 7 1945.

[A Moose in Love]

Post by Greg Carr

Post by A Moose in Love
https://spectator.org/after-a-century-of-chaos-totalitarianism-and-war-versailles-treaty-still-haunts-the-world/
A most shameful treaty shoved down the throat of the Germans at bayonet point. Was it really a treaty, or a provocation for a continued war?
Time to draw out the haters and bigots. In other words, the filth.

Your ancestors were active in the WW1 and started WW2. They killed millions of ppl for being Slavs, Jews, political opponents or captured POWs plus the millions more they slaughtered through the Blitzkrieg until The Hun was defeated in 1945.
The Allies in WW2 demanded the unconditional surrender of Germany and the whimpering, raped Germans ended up capitualing on May 7 1945.

You sound like a shrill sow.

[Greg Carr]

Post by A Moose in Love

Post by Greg Carr

Post by A Moose in Love
https://spectator.org/after-a-century-of-chaos-totalitarianism-and-war-versailles-treaty-still-haunts-the-world/
A most shameful treaty shoved down the throat of the Germans at bayonet point. Was it really a treaty, or a provocation for a continued war?
Time to draw out the haters and bigots. In other words, the filth.

Your ancestors were active in the WW1 and started WW2. They killed millions of ppl for being Slavs, Jews, political opponents or captured POWs plus the millions more they slaughtered through the Blitzkrieg until The Hun was defeated in 1945.
The Allies in WW2 demanded the unconditional surrender of Germany and the whimpering, raped Germans ended up capitualing on May 7 1945.

You sound like a shrill sow.

At least I am not an opium obsessed apologist for Nazism.