Discussion:
LOL... Dumbass Climate and Weather Dunce Tom Sr. Thinks Warm Air Holds More Water Vapour -- NOT The Scientist You THOUGHT You Were, Huh, Moron?
(too old to reply)
AlleyCat
2019-03-19 02:00:54 UTC
Permalink
You and Bill Nye "The Comedian Guy"... exact dorky duplicates.

=====

Does Warm Air "Hold" More Water Vapor Than Cold Air?

By Jack Williams
September 11, 2013 (no, idiot... the properties of warm and cool air have
NOT changed in 5? years)

A OFT-repeated water vapor MYTH is that warm air can "hold" more water
vapor than cool air because as the air warms its molecules move farther
apart, making room for more molecules. This leads to the idea that as air
cools its molecules move closer together, "squeezing" out water vapor.

[giggle]

If you look at what happens in nature, such as clouds beginning to form
when the air rises and grows colder, the idea that condensation begins
when the air grows too cold to "hold" the water vapor in it SEEMS to make
sense (and for you dumbasses out there, like Tom Sr.... "seems" means it
doesn't, really... LOL).

But, saying cold air can't hold as much water vapor as warmer air is at
best a metaphor for what happens. It's a metaphor that can lead people
astray AS THEY TRY TO UNDERSTAND WEATHER.

OBVIOUSLY, Tom Sr. DOESN'T.

To begin with, it doesn't make any physical sense because the air around
us is mostly empty space with molecules of nitrogen, oxygen, water vapor,
and other gases zipping around at speeds in the neighborhood of 1,000 mph
near the ground.

There's plenty of room for water vapor molecules to join the mix. As we
saw above, they would displace some of the nitrogen and oxygen molecules.
We can think of these displaced molecules spreading out into nearby, drier
air. As the air grows colder the average speeds of all of the gasses in
the air slow down, but there is still plenty of room for water vapor.

The best way to see what happens when water evaporates into water vapor
and when this vapor condenses back into water is to imagine a drinking
glass full of water in a room where the air is still. We also need to
imagine we can see water molecules.

If so, you'd see water molecules moving around at various speeds in the
water in the glass glass and also in the air above the water as vapor. On
the average, the molecules in the glass are moving slower than those in
the air. The liquid molecules in the glass are, on the average, slow
enough for intermolecular forces to hold them in the glass while they
otherwise move freely.

The vapor molecules in the air are moving fast enough to overcome
intermolecular forces.

In both cases the molecules are not all moving at the same speed, but at a
wide range of speeds with most of these speeds relatively close to the
average, but a few are moving much faster and others much slower.
Some of the molecules in the glass will be moving fast enough to escape
the water and fly into the air; they evaporate into vapor. In a similar
way, some vapor molecules in the air are going slowly enough to be pulled
into the water by intermolecular forces when they hit the water; they
condense into liquid.

If a breeze is not carrying away water molecules that evaporate into the
air and the temperature doesn't change the number of molecules evaporating
and those condensing are roughly the same. The air isn't becoming more
humid and water is staying at the same level in the glass.

If you cooled the room the average speeds of the water molecules in both
the water and the air would slow. You'd see more water molecules in the
air moving slowly enough to stay in the water when they hit - they've
condensed. At the same time fewer molecules in the water are moving fast
enough to evaporate. The water level in the glass would increase.

If you warmed the room and the water the average speed of the molecules
would increase and more would evaporate until a new equilibrium is reached
between evaporation and condensation.
In the everyday atmosphere, if the air is cooled enough as it rises water
molecules slow down enough to attach to tiny particles in the air known as
condensation nuclei to begin forming fog or cloud drops. At ground level
they form dew drops on grass and objects such as cars.

For more on why saying condensation begins when the air can no longer hold
the water vapor in it is both wrong and can lead to wrong conclusions, see
Alistair B. Fraser's "Bad Clouds" page on his Bad Meteorology site on the
Pennsylvania State University Web site.

http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadClouds.html
--
"It's all about money in the end. Keeping the Gravy Train running."

AlleyCat
2019-03-19 04:57:05 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 18 Mar 2019 20:27:27 -0700 (PDT), JTEM is Remarkably Flexible

=====

Oooh, I hope so.

=====

The Science Guys
Science Guys
December 2000

Why does ice form on the wings of airplanes?

At high altitudes, air can be extremely cold, and be well below the normal
freezing point of water, 32 degrees Fahrenheit. Air normally contains a
certain amount of water vapor. AS THE TEMPERATURE DECREASES THE AMOUNT OF
WATER VAPOR INCREASES TO THE POINT OF SATURATION.

https://www.uu.edu/dept/physics/scienceguys/2000Dec.cfm

=====

That DOES sound counter-intuitive, but hey, THEY are the scientists... WE
are not. But wait, there's more. (see below)
Do this on a cold day, compare the results.
Well, duh! That's just a non-reaction because the air is colder than the
can, but that does not MEASURE relative humidity. You could have 100%
relative humidity in "cool" air, but again, HOW cool or...

HOW cold? Colder than the can? Colder than 32.000000°F? (for Kymberly)
Water vapour CAN remain in air colder than freezing. (see above)

I am NOT a scientist (go ahead, all you other NOT-a-scientist-eithers...
all in unison say, "You got that right! What about YOU?)... are you? Is it
YOUR opinion that "cooler" air can't hold as much water vapour as "warm"?

Pun intended here, but that's all relative. What, exactly do YOU mean by
"cooler"?

You can have 100% humidity in "cooler" air (but again, just what
constitutes "cooler" air? Cooler than what? The can? DUH!).

THAT the can might not get wet if it is warmer than the air, doesn't
matter... there can STILL be water vapour in the air, and as much as
"warmer" air.

You're comparing a cold can with "cold" air... not cooler air versus
warmer air.

Apples and oranges.

It's about relative humidity and dew points. Some say "colder" air can't
hold as much water vapour, but WHAT temperature are we talking about? No
one has been specific yet... not in that regard, anyways.

NO ONE has given any EXACT temps. Air temperature of 33°F can hold JUST as
much water vapour as an air temp of 100°F. Are you even bothering to read
the articles?
Warm air holds more moisture than cold air. Period.
Take it up with the people who write you're wrong.

I see both arguments on the Internet (sorry, I canceled my subscription to
Science Nerds Quarterly)... so, who IS right?

=====

Net Condensation: Myth and Reality

Evaporation Rates, Condensation Rates, and Relative Humidity
A Recipe for Making Clouds

By the end of this section, you should be able to discuss why the idea
that warm air holds more water vapor than cold air IS A FALLACY, and
discuss how water drops grow in terms of condensation rates and
evaporation rates.

Have you ever been taught that "warm air holds more water vapor than cold
air," or perhaps heard it when reading or watching a story about weather?
If you search around on the Web, you can find plenty of sites that explain
processes like cloud formation with the idea that cold air can't hold as
much water vapor as warm air. The explanations usually go something like
this: "air cools to the point where it can't hold any more water vapor,
and liquid water drops form." But, don't believe everything you read on
the Internet! This idea is scientific garbage, and it poorly describes
what's really happening when net condensation causes liquid water droplets
to form.

Motivating Myth: Warm air holds more water vapor than cold air. Or
alternatively, cold air can hold less water vapor than warm air.
Photograph of a "No Vacancy" sign
Air isn't like a hotel that posts a "No Vacancy" sign when it's full of
water vapor.
Credit: No Vacancy / Taber Andrew Bain / CC BY 2.0

For starters, let's examine what accepting this myth really implies. By
accepting this myth, we're basically treating air like a sponge, and once
all the pores in the sponge get filled with water, it can't absorb any
more water, so water starts dripping from the saturated sponge. But, air
isn't like a sponge. Air is also not like a hotel, which posts a "No
Vacancy" sign when all of its rooms are filled with water vapor. If these
ideas sound a little silly, it's because they are!

What we call "air" is really mostly empty space with tiny molecules flying
around independently of each other. If we had a box filled with air, the
"air" molecules (oxygen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, etc.) would occupy a
really tiny fraction of the space in the box, regardless of the
temperature. In other words, no matter what the temperature is, there's
always enough room for more water vapor molecules. So, the idea that
colder air doesn't have enough room to hold more water vapor molecules is
nonsense!

So, why is the myth that "warm air holds more water vapor than cold air"
so common? Well, it's an "easy" explanation, and sometimes folks (even
those who should know better) take unfortunate shortcuts. This particular
myth seems to explain the observation that net condensation (and the
formation of liquid water drops) more easily occurs at lower temperatures.
But, what's really going on? Let's explore.

From the recent discussion of condensation rates and evaporation rates,
you already know what's going on when liquid water drops form and grow --
net condensation is occurring because the condensation rate is greater
than the evaporation rate. But, at higher temperatures, evaporation rates
increase, and with increased evaporation rates, even higher condensation
rates are required for net condensation to occur. As you know, higher
condensation rates occur when the number of water vapor molecules
increases, so when the air is warm, the high evaporation rates give the
potential for a higher number of water molecules to remain in the vapor
state without net condensation occurring. In other words, when it's warm,
more water vapor molecules are needed in order for liquid water drops to
form and grow. When the air is cooler, evaporation rates are decreased,
meaning that fewer water vapor molecules are required for net condensation
to occur.
A photograph of a cup with liquid water drops covering part of the
outside.
Why did "dew" (tiny liquid water drops) form on the bottom part of the
metal cup, but not on the top part? It's got nothing to do with some
mythical holding capacity for water vapor.
Credit: David Babb

We can use these ideas to analyze what's going on in the photograph on the
left, which shows something that you've probably observed before -- liquid
water drops forming on the outside of a glass containing a cold beverage.
This photograph shows a metal cup partially filled with cold water. The
bottom half of the cup (approximately) is coated with a layer of small
liquid water drops (often called "dew"), while the top half is not. So,
should we believe that somehow the air near the bottom half of the cup
can't "hold" any more water vapor, which caused liquid water droplets to
form on the side of the glass, while the air just above can magically
"hold" more water vapor (since no water drops had formed on the top part
of the cup)? Absolutely not!

Remember, evaporation and condensation are occurring around you all the
time, even if you can't see the results. Therefore, water molecules are
impacting (condensing) and leaving (evaporating) all over the surface of
the cup, but the rates of evaporation differ from the bottom half of the
cup to the top half. Recall that the cup is partially filled with cold
water, which has made the bottom part of the cup relatively cold, and in
turn, a thin layer of air surrounding the bottom half of the cup cools as
well.

Near the cold bottom half of the cup, water vapor molecules move more
slowly and the rate of evaporation is reduced. When the air in contact
with the cup cools enough so that the rate of evaporation is slightly less
than the rate of condensation (net condensation occurs), liquid water
drops form and grow. Meanwhile, the top-half of the cup, and the thin
layer of air immediately surrounding it, are warmer, leading to a higher
rate of evaporation, and the rate of evaporation is greater than the rate
of condensation. In other words, any microscopic water droplets that
temporarily form on the top half of the cup evaporate almost immediately
(because net evaporation is occurring), causing the outside of the top-
half of the cup to remain dry.

So, cooling the air (decreasing its temperature) is one way to achieve net
condensation. If the air cools enough (temperature decreases enough) that
the evaporation rate becomes less than the condensation rate, net
condensation can occur and liquid water drops can form and grow. Another
way to achieve net condensation is to increase the amount of water vapor
molecules present (increase the dew point), which leads to a greater rate
of condensation. If the amount of water vapor molecules increases enough
(dew points increase enough) to make the condensation rate greater than
the evaporation rate, then net condensation can occur and liquid water
drops can form and grow.

However, in the atmosphere, the most common way for net condensation to
occur (especially for processes like cloud formation) is to cool the air.
For example, in theory, clouds form when the air cools and the temperature
drops to, and ever so slightly below, the dew point. Observations show
that the relative humidity inside clouds is usually slightly greater than
100 percent (say, 100.2 percent as a representative value), which means
the condensation rate slightly exceeds the evaporation rate. In a cloud
that forms from rapidly rising air, the rate of condensation exceeds the
rate of evaporation because the rate of cooling is faster than the rate
that water vapor is being removed from the air via condensation. In other
words, the evaporation rate decreases more quickly than the condensation
rate (which declines as liquid water drops grow and fewer water molecules
are in the vapor phase), causing the condensation rate to exceed the
evaporation rate (and resulting in a relative humidity slightly higher
than 100 percent).

The bottom line is that the growth of liquid water droplets as "dew" on
the side of your drinking cup, on blades of grass in the morning, or as
cloud droplets (just as a few examples), depends on evaporation rates and
condensation rates. Liquid water drops grow when net condensation occurs
and not because the air just can't "hold" any more water vapor. Remember,
there's always plenty of room in cold air for water vapor molecules.

The real issue is that as the temperature of the air decreases, water
vapor molecules slow down and evaporation rates decrease making it
possible for condensation rates to exceed evaporation rates (if enough
cooling occurs). But, in order to achieve net condensation in the real
atmosphere, we need another ingredient. We'll explore that on the next
page, as well as discuss the overall recipe for making clouds.
--
"It's all about money in the end. Keeping the Gravy Train running."
http://youtu.be/J9Oi7x2OBdI
Siri Cruise
2019-03-19 07:26:06 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@news.eternal-september.org>,
AlleyCat <***@aohell.com> wrote:

(1) Water vapour is a transparent gas.
(2) Water droplets are a transparent but refracting liquid.
(3) Ice crystal are a transparent but refracting solid.
(4) Clouds consist of water droplets and ice crystals. Given enough water, the
refraction scatters light making them white instead of transparent.
(5) Water requires nucleating to condense to a liquid or solid.
Post by AlleyCat
Why does ice form on the wings of airplanes?
At high altitudes, air can be extremely cold, and be well below the normal
freezing point of water, 32 degrees Fahrenheit. Air normally contains a
certain amount of water vapor. AS THE TEMPERATURE DECREASES THE AMOUNT OF
WATER VAPOR INCREASES TO THE POINT OF SATURATION.
Water vapour and droplets requires nucleation to condense to ice, and leading
edges are nucleation sites. Also ice crystals will be transparent at low
density. You're getting the effects of nucleation and collision with existing
atmospheric ice.
Post by AlleyCat
That DOES sound counter-intuitive, but hey, THEY are the scientists... WE
It is not sufficiently pedantic for your limitted wit.
Post by AlleyCat
Do this on a cold day, compare the results.
Well, duh! That's just a non-reaction because the air is colder than the
can, but that does not MEASURE relative humidity. You could have 100%
relative humidity in "cool" air, but again, HOW cool or...
What does relative humidity have to do with anything? Any water colliding with a
lower temperature surface can do enough work to lose its latent heat and
condense on the surface. Water can also condense on a warmer surface, but that
is extremely improbable: it is much more likely the surface will instead work on
the water increasing the water's energy, leading to evaporation instead.
Post by AlleyCat
Water vapour CAN remain in air colder than freezing. (see above)
Water needs to nucleate before freezing. This can be delayed even when the water
temperature is below freezing.
Post by AlleyCat
I am NOT a scientist (go ahead, all you other NOT-a-scientist-eithers...
all in unison say, "You got that right! What about YOU?)... are you? Is it
YOUR opinion that "cooler" air can't hold as much water vapour as "warm"?
How about you do an experiment to test it? Put some water in a scaled sealed
beaker with a thermometer suspended above the water. Compare the volume of
liquid water to the air temperature. Any correlation? Do the appropriate
statistical analysis to check whether the observations can be due to chance.
Post by AlleyCat
It's about relative humidity and dew points. Some say "colder" air can't
No, it's about latent heat and nucleation.
Post by AlleyCat
NO ONE has given any EXACT temps. Air temperature of 33°F can hold JUST as
much water vapour as an air temp of 100°F. Are you even bothering to read
the articles?
Do the above experiment to verify your claim. Facts not feelies.
Post by AlleyCat
Warm air holds more moisture than cold air. Period.
Take it up with the people who write you're wrong.
Do the above experiment to verify your claim. Facts not feelies.
Post by AlleyCat
By the end of this section, you should be able to discuss why the idea
that warm air holds more water vapor than cold air IS A FALLACY, and
discuss how water drops grow in terms of condensation rates and
evaporation rates.
Do the above experiment to verify your claim. Facts not feelies.
Post by AlleyCat
much water vapor as warm air. The explanations usually go something like
this: "air cools to the point where it can't hold any more water vapor,
and liquid water drops form." But, don't believe everything you read on
Water vapour can do enough work on other gasses and objects to lose its latent
heat. It then has to nucleate which depends on its temperature and/or presence
of nucleating sites. And as explained in thermodynamics, not all the vapour will
have the same energy.

(Water vapour and other gasses also radiate which lowers their energy. Photons
absorbed raise their energy. Photons that escape to space are a loss of
atmospheric energy. Also due to gravity atmospheric density decreases with
altitude, which decreases pressure. As predicted by the gas law this increases
volume which does not change energy, but does reduce energy density which is
what is temperature.)
Post by AlleyCat
Motivating Myth: Warm air holds more water vapor than cold air. Or
alternatively, cold air can hold less water vapor than warm air.
Photograph of a "No Vacancy" sign
Air isn't like a hotel that posts a "No Vacancy" sign when it's full of
water vapor.
Do the above experiment to verify your claim. Facts not feelies.

The theory is the warmer the other gasses, the more work done on water which
raises the water energy above latent heat. That greatly decreases the
probability of condensation. The theory is not disproven because you don't like
it; it is disproven by contrary experiments. Do the experiment.
Post by AlleyCat
accepting this myth, we're basically treating air like a sponge, and once
No, we're treating air like fluid with some average energy density (temperature)
along with suspended liquid and solid particles which are important as
nucleating sites.

The gas law does not account for chemical reactions amongst the gasses. When
these become significant the above theory can fail.
Post by AlleyCat
What we call "air" is really mostly empty space with tiny molecules flying
The 'empty space' is the reaction distance. It requires energy to compress air
because that reduces the available reaction distance. Whether you want to call
that 'empty' depends on what you mean by 'empty'. Air does condense to a far
smaller volume when cooled to a liquid or solid, but that requires a lot of work
done on the air.
Post by AlleyCat
temperature. In other words, no matter what the temperature is, there's
always enough room for more water vapor molecules. So, the idea that
Forcing more air into a volume also reduces the reaction distance.
Post by AlleyCat
So, why is the myth that "warm air holds more water vapor than cold air"
If you need the pedantry, then the warm air has more energy to share with water
to increase the probability the water will retain its latent heat to prevent
condensation.
Post by AlleyCat
A photograph of a cup with liquid water drops covering part of the
outside.
Why did "dew" (tiny liquid water drops) form on the bottom part of the
metal cup, but not on the top part? It's got nothing to do with some
mythical holding capacity for water vapor.
Do another experiment. I speculate that on a vertical surface water will flow
down and accumulate to become more visible. So use a horizontal surface
orthogonal to gravity. Is the condensation still uncorrelated to temperature?
Also the cup contents may form a temperature gradient also due to gravity.
Post by AlleyCat
The bottom line is that the growth of liquid water droplets as "dew" on
the side of your drinking cup, on blades of grass in the morning, or as
cloud droplets (just as a few examples), depends on evaporation rates and
Gravity has a much smaller effect on clouds where water and ice has such little
mass that brownian motion can resist gravity.


And you're still wit challenged.
--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
The first law of discordiamism: The more energy This post / \
to make order is nore energy made into entropy. insults Islam. Mohammed
AlleyCat
2019-03-19 11:03:41 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 00:26:06 -0700, Siri Cruise says...

Thousands of rant characters deleted. All that bullshit to prove what?
NONE of that bullshit you wrote, had ANYTHING to do with the topic;
whether cold air can hold as much water vapour.

NO ONE was talking about whether the water in water vapour could keep it's
"latent heat".

What the fuck? It was a simple topic. Can "cool" air hold as much water
vapour as warmer air.

LOL... why must you go on off-topic rants like that. Were you showing off?
NO ONE is impressed... you wrote NOTHING about the topic.
Post by Siri Cruise
And you're still wit challenged.
When it comes to YOUR wit... challenge accepted. Your wit belongs in a
mental ward of high IQ idiots, who cut themselves and pull their own hair
out. Do you hear voices too, Mr. Schizo?

YOU are the only one who gets YOUR wit, nerdo.

With wit like yours, no WONDER you're a stay-at-home nerd. NO ONE gets
you... that's why your father left your ass.

Have a nice day, reading Usenet all day long. Time for work.

Oops... sorry.
--
"It's all about money in the end. Keeping the Gravy Train running."
http://youtu.be/J9Oi7x2OBdI
Siri Cruise
2019-03-19 12:21:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by AlleyCat
On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 00:26:06 -0700, Siri Cruise says...
Thousands of rant characters deleted. All that bullshit to prove what?
NONE of that bullshit you wrote, had ANYTHING to do with the topic;
whether cold air can hold as much water vapour.
You never surprise nor disappoint.
Post by AlleyCat
NO ONE was talking about whether the water in water vapour could keep it's
"latent heat".
What the fuck? It was a simple topic. Can "cool" air hold as much water
vapour as warmer air.
LOL... why must you go on off-topic rants like that. Were you showing off?
NO ONE is impressed... you wrote NOTHING about the topic.
Post by Siri Cruise
And you're still wit challenged.
When it comes to YOUR wit... challenge accepted. Your wit belongs in a
mental ward of high IQ idiots, who cut themselves and pull their own hair
out. Do you hear voices too, Mr. Schizo?
YOU are the only one who gets YOUR wit, nerdo.
With wit like yours, no WONDER you're a stay-at-home nerd. NO ONE gets
you... that's why your father left your ass.
Have a nice day, reading Usenet all day long. Time for work.
Oops... sorry.
--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
The first law of discordiamism: The more energy This post / \
to make order is nore energy made into entropy. insults Islam. Mohammed
AlleyCat
2019-03-20 00:06:04 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 06:48:32 -0700 (PDT), Tom Sr. says...
Indeed. KKKat's conspiracy-driving ravings are so boring I do not even read them anymore.
Ha ha haha haha ha ha ha ha hahaha haha ha haha haha ha
haha hahaha hahaha ha hahahahahaha haha hahahaha hahaha
hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha hahahaha ha hahahahaha
hahahahahaha hahahahahaha HA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHA
HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHA
HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHAHA
HAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHA HAHA HAHA HAHAHAHA HAHAHA HAHA
HA HAHA hahaha hahaha haha ha hahahaha hahaha haha ha ha
haha hahahaha ha haha haha ha hahaha hahaha ha hahaha
ha haha ha ha ha haha ha ha haha haha ha haha ha ha hee!

What a childish liar.

You HAD to read my whole article to make an attempt to move the goalpost
and win like wy.

Here... you can have his trophy... I took it back.

https://imgur.com/5bogkrz

YOU made the statement: "True or false: Saturated warm air contains more
water vapor than saturated cold air."

Saturated is saturated. I proved you WRONG, so, you lose.

Gimme back that trophy.

"CONTAINS"... not "hold". You're splitting hairs and moving goalposts.

Cold air and warm air CAN become as saturated as the other, but you had to
add a disingenuous qualifier for your NEW argument.

In other words, you actually changed the topic, like a good liberal does,
when you've been proven a liar and a hoax. How long did you scour the
Internet to make sure you found an article somewhat similar, but
different, to make your misdirected post?

Typical low-self-esteemed basement-dwelling, no-working, mouth-breathing
liberal, who HAS to have the last word, or he cannot sleep. [giggle]
--
"It's all about money in the end. Keeping the Gravy Train running."
http://youtu.be/J9Oi7x2OBdI
AlleyCat
2019-03-20 00:33:07 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 06:48:32 -0700 (PDT), Tom Sr. says...
(Note the word *hold* appears in quotes in this article, meaning the word is used in a qualified manner.)
Ha ha haha haha ha ha ha ha hahaha haha ha haha haha ha
haha hahaha hahaha ha hahahahahaha haha hahahaha hahaha
hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha hahahaha ha hahahahaha
hahahahahaha hahahahahaha HA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHA
HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHA
HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHAHA
HAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHA HAHA HAHA HAHAHAHA HAHAHA HAHA
HA HAHA hahaha hahaha haha ha hahahaha hahaha haha ha ha
haha hahahaha ha haha haha ha hahaha hahaha ha hahaha
ha haha ha ha ha haha ha ha haha haha ha haha ha ha hee!


"Note" that YOUR original point was NOT whether cold air can "hold" as
much as warm air.

Move that goalpost, Tom "Bi" The NOT-A-SCIENTIST Guy

"True or false: Saturated warm air contains more water vapor than
saturated cold air."

LOL...

Doesn't matter... it's still a myth that cold air can't HOLD as much water
as warm air.

=====

Net Condensation: Myth and Reality

Evaporation Rates, Condensation Rates, and Relative Humidity
A Recipe for Making Clouds

By the end of this section, you should be able to discuss why the idea
that warm air holds more water vapor than cold air IS A FALLACY, and
discuss how water drops grow in terms of condensation rates and
evaporation rates.

Have you ever been taught that "warm air holds more water vapor than cold
air," or perhaps heard it when reading or watching a story about weather?
If you search around on the Web, you can find plenty of sites that explain
processes like cloud formation with the idea that cold air can't hold as
much water vapor as warm air. The explanations usually go something like
this: "air cools to the point where it can't hold any more water vapor,
and liquid water drops form." But, don't believe everything you read on
the Internet! This idea is scientific garbage, and it poorly describes
what's really happening when net condensation causes liquid water droplets
to form.

Motivating Myth: Warm air holds more water vapor than cold air. Or
alternatively, cold air can hold less water vapor than warm air.
Photograph of a "No Vacancy" sign
Air isn't like a hotel that posts a "No Vacancy" sign when it's full of
water vapor.
Credit: No Vacancy / Taber Andrew Bain / CC BY 2.0

For starters, let's examine what accepting this myth really implies. By
accepting this myth, we're basically treating air like a sponge, and once
all the pores in the sponge get filled with water, it can't absorb any
more water, so water starts dripping from the saturated sponge. But, air
isn't like a sponge. Air is also not like a hotel, which posts a "No
Vacancy" sign when all of its rooms are filled with water vapor. If these
ideas sound a little silly, it's because they are!

What we call "air" is really mostly empty space with tiny molecules flying
around independently of each other. If we had a box filled with air, the
"air" molecules (oxygen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, etc.) would occupy a
really tiny fraction of the space in the box, regardless of the
temperature. In other words, no matter what the temperature is, there's
always enough room for more water vapor molecules. So, the idea that
colder air doesn't have enough room to hold more water vapor molecules is
nonsense!

So, why is the myth that "warm air holds more water vapor than cold air"
so common? Well, it's an "easy" explanation, and sometimes folks (even
those who should know better) take unfortunate shortcuts. This particular
myth seems to explain the observation that net condensation (and the
formation of liquid water drops) more easily occurs at lower temperatures.
But, what's really going on? Let's explore.

From the recent discussion of condensation rates and evaporation rates,
you already know what's going on when liquid water drops form and grow --
net condensation is occurring because the condensation rate is greater
than the evaporation rate. But, at higher temperatures, evaporation rates
increase, and with increased evaporation rates, even higher condensation
rates are required for net condensation to occur. As you know, higher
condensation rates occur when the number of water vapor molecules
increases, so when the air is warm, the high evaporation rates give the
potential for a higher number of water molecules to remain in the vapor
state without net condensation occurring. In other words, when it's warm,
more water vapor molecules are needed in order for liquid water drops to
form and grow. When the air is cooler, evaporation rates are decreased,
meaning that fewer water vapor molecules are required for net condensation
to occur.
A photograph of a cup with liquid water drops covering part of the
outside.
Why did "dew" (tiny liquid water drops) form on the bottom part of the
metal cup, but not on the top part? It's got nothing to do with some
mythical holding capacity for water vapor.
Credit: David Babb

We can use these ideas to analyze what's going on in the photograph on the
left, which shows something that you've probably observed before -- liquid
water drops forming on the outside of a glass containing a cold beverage.
This photograph shows a metal cup partially filled with cold water. The
bottom half of the cup (approximately) is coated with a layer of small
liquid water drops (often called "dew"), while the top half is not. So,
should we believe that somehow the air near the bottom half of the cup
can't "hold" any more water vapor, which caused liquid water droplets to
form on the side of the glass, while the air just above can magically
"hold" more water vapor (since no water drops had formed on the top part
of the cup)? Absolutely not!

Remember, evaporation and condensation are occurring around you all the
time, even if you can't see the results. Therefore, water molecules are
impacting (condensing) and leaving (evaporating) all over the surface of
the cup, but the rates of evaporation differ from the bottom half of the
cup to the top half. Recall that the cup is partially filled with cold
water, which has made the bottom part of the cup relatively cold, and in
turn, a thin layer of air surrounding the bottom half of the cup cools as
well.

Near the cold bottom half of the cup, water vapor molecules move more
slowly and the rate of evaporation is reduced. When the air in contact
with the cup cools enough so that the rate of evaporation is slightly less
than the rate of condensation (net condensation occurs), liquid water
drops form and grow. Meanwhile, the top-half of the cup, and the thin
layer of air immediately surrounding it, are warmer, leading to a higher
rate of evaporation, and the rate of evaporation is greater than the rate
of condensation. In other words, any microscopic water droplets that
temporarily form on the top half of the cup evaporate almost immediately
(because net evaporation is occurring), causing the outside of the top-
half of the cup to remain dry.

So, cooling the air (decreasing its temperature) is one way to achieve net
condensation. If the air cools enough (temperature decreases enough) that
the evaporation rate becomes less than the condensation rate, net
condensation can occur and liquid water drops can form and grow. Another
way to achieve net condensation is to increase the amount of water vapor
molecules present (increase the dew point), which leads to a greater rate
of condensation. If the amount of water vapor molecules increases enough
(dew points increase enough) to make the condensation rate greater than
the evaporation rate, then net condensation can occur and liquid water
drops can form and grow.

However, in the atmosphere, the most common way for net condensation to
occur (especially for processes like cloud formation) is to cool the air.
For example, in theory, clouds form when the air cools and the temperature
drops to, and ever so slightly below, the dew point. Observations show
that the relative humidity inside clouds is usually slightly greater than
100 percent (say, 100.2 percent as a representative value), which means
the condensation rate slightly exceeds the evaporation rate. In a cloud
that forms from rapidly rising air, the rate of condensation exceeds the
rate of evaporation because the rate of cooling is faster than the rate
that water vapor is being removed from the air via condensation. In other
words, the evaporation rate decreases more quickly than the condensation
rate (which declines as liquid water drops grow and fewer water molecules
are in the vapor phase), causing the condensation rate to exceed the
evaporation rate (and resulting in a relative humidity slightly higher
than 100 percent).

The bottom line is that the growth of liquid water droplets as "dew" on
the side of your drinking cup, on blades of grass in the morning, or as
cloud droplets (just as a few examples), depends on evaporation rates and
condensation rates. Liquid water drops grow when net condensation occurs
and not because the air just can't "hold" any more water vapor. Remember,
there's always plenty of room in cold air for water vapor molecules.

The real issue is that as the temperature of the air decreases, water
vapor molecules slow down and evaporation rates decrease making it
possible for condensation rates to exceed evaporation rates (if enough
cooling occurs). But, in order to achieve net condensation in the real
atmosphere, we need another ingredient. We'll explore that on the next
page, as well as discuss the overall recipe for making clouds.
--
"It's all about money in the end. Keeping the Gravy Train running."
http://youtu.be/J9Oi7x2OBdI
AlleyCat
2019-03-19 23:12:42 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 04:21:08 -0700 (PDT), Kym Horsell says...
Post by AlleyCat
On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 00:26:06 -0700, Siri Cruise says...
Thousands of rant characters deleted. All that bullshit to prove what?
NONE of that bullshit you wrote, had ANYTHING to do with the topic;
whether cold air can hold as much water vapour.
...
Oh wmon.
Kymberly... translation, please?
You cain count past 3 let alone 1000.
(speaking Oztralion bogan, like Kymnerly does so well)

Oi dint keeownt... oi hed Mykrossofft dew eet fer mee.

Put anotha shreemp en de barbie, Redneck.
Only a hillbilly gets confused by whether a gal jug can hold more malt
liquor than a quart jug an INSISTS the quart jug is bigger cos
it could hold an oz and the big jug is empty.
Oi onely drenc Foistah's loggah, redneck... weh doan drenc thet Ahmeerikin
hedake beeah heah een da lend deeown unda Hugh Jackman's balls.

Stewpit.

https://vimeo.com/260716911
--
"It's all about money in the end. Keeping the Gravy Train running."
http://youtu.be/J9Oi7x2OBdI
%
2019-03-19 23:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by AlleyCat
On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 04:21:08 -0700 (PDT), Kym Horsell says...
Post by AlleyCat
On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 00:26:06 -0700, Siri Cruise says...
Thousands of rant characters deleted. All that bullshit to prove what?
NONE of that bullshit you wrote, had ANYTHING to do with the topic;
whether cold air can hold as much water vapour.
...
Oh wmon.
Kymberly... translation, please?
You cain count past 3 let alone 1000.
(speaking Oztralion bogan, like Kymnerly does so well)
Oi dint keeownt... oi hed Mykrossofft dew eet fer mee.
Put anotha shreemp en de barbie, Redneck.
Only a hillbilly gets confused by whether a gal jug can hold more malt
liquor than a quart jug an INSISTS the quart jug is bigger cos
it could hold an oz and the big jug is empty.
Oi onely drenc Foistah's loggah, redneck... weh doan drenc thet Ahmeerikin
hedake beeah heah een da lend deeown unda Hugh Jackman's balls.
Stewpit.
https://vimeo.com/260716911
i like when people fight on usenet it entertains me
AlleyCat
2019-03-20 00:17:45 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 16:17:09 -0700, % says...
Post by %
i like when people fight on usenet it entertains me
LOL... that is exactly why I DO this... days at work are always smoothed
over after making these supposed geniuses look like the bumbling, socially
inept basement dwellers that they are. I may be technically wrong, now and
then, but it's always entertaining.

Quotes from long ago.

"Who said I was here to "debate", literally? I'm here as a thorn, only...
and it seems you need to try to marginalize by denigration. Ain't working,
moron. I don't have thin skin, like you pouting children on the left. I
really DO LOL when you call me names and say something (not-so) clever
about what or who I am. Like I said... THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT. I get a kick
out of you hypocrites, who say how the Republicans are the mean ones...
riiiiight."

LOL... as I've explained to you morons many times...

16 Nov 2015
"I'm not angry at all. I told you dumb fucks... THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT,
watching you liberals spew YOUR hate and bile and pretend that you're the
"nice" ones."


27 Oct 2015
"LOL... I have NO delusions OR Illusions... THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT for
me... watching you nerds fall all over yourselves and lying to try and
make people believe the bullshit that is socialism and liberalism, is the
way to go."

[...]

"Like I said... THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT for me. I get a kick out
of you hypocrites, who say how the Republicans are the mean ones...
riiiiight."


7 Jul 2016
"Arguing is a waste of time. THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT."


23 Oct 2016
"THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT for me. I know it means nothing to be putting
anything on Usenet. I'm so comfortable in my meaninglessness, that none of
what you homos say, matters at all to me, insults and all. I forget about
it, once I've closed my newsreader. I laugh every time you homos call me
whiny, KNOWING that that's what you homos do on a regular hourly basis."

THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT!!
AlleyCat
2019-03-19 23:20:48 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 08:31:36 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill says...
Sumtims you kant dumb it down enuff eben wif analogees.
Sorry, bogan... can't read Colt-Clantonese.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_clan_incest_case

https://www.talkenglish.com/

Hope this helps with your problem. Maybe you'd get more trolls to talk to
you, since you can't with that Colt Clan speak. We know the ONLY reason
you post here 24/7, is because you're a lonely old fart who has ZERO
friends (like MOST of the Internet and Usenet trolls).

Yup... Australia's nothing but a bunch of inbred ex-convict descendants.
Maybe if your family tree didn't form a straight line, we could understand
you.
--
"It's all about money in the end. Keeping the Gravy Train running."
http://youtu.be/J9Oi7x2OBdI
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